Underseat Steering Bacchettas

New here, so I thought I would try a post. I have many recumbents but I thought that someone might be interested in viewing my underseat steering Bacchetas. I just finished the Giro 20, on Christmas day 2014. The Giro 700, has about 8000 miles on it over the last two years.

 

Looks Great! I have an R40 and R50 Visions both with USS and love them.

 

Tell us about the Giro 20. Can you post some more pics of exactly what you did? It looks like you added a second head tube.

 

Giro 20, pics

Here are a couple of pics and, showing the steering on the Giro 20.

1.) I drilled out a hole with a hole saw for the head tube, I bought at Nova Cycle Supply.

2.) I than had a welder weld the head tube in, with a small gusset in front.

3.) I than cut the head tube length, down to the size that I wanted.

4.) I than had the frame, powder coated orange.

5.) I than had the local LBS, ream and face the head tube after I had it powder coated. I than installed two Cane Creek headsets.

6.) While the frame was being powder coated, I had a machine shop make two clamps. You can see them as aluminum colored, in the pics, at the bottom of the head tubes. The clamps were drilled and threaded for 8mm bolts.

7.) I purchased 8mm tie-rod ends and tubing from a Go-Kart shop online, to connect the two clamps.

8.) I used the Bacchetta handlebar, stem and steerer tube, for my setup.

Any questions? Feel free to ask,

Joe

 

Looks really nice. I saw your thread over on the Bacchetta forum where you posted about the Giro 700. I think you should follow up and post about the Giro 20 over there as well.

A buddy and I both prefer USS and have a lot of miles on Vision recumbents. We're both in the Toledo area. We may have to take a drive up and check out your handiwork in person next year.

I do have a few questions for you. What's the reason that you did this conversion the way you did? Were you not 100% happy with the results of the Giro 700 conversion?

With regard to the Giro 700, a clamp-on system was mentioned and you said you thought about it but didn't think it would be strong enough. My question is, why?

Maybe I'm not looking at it from the right perspective, but I think about how the seats on Bacchetta & RANS bikes are held in place by clamps, and they're under constant stress from pedaling pressure but stay secured in place. By comparison (in my mind anyway), it seems like a clamp-on linkage steering system would basically just be 'sitting there' and be under much less stress, so I'm wondering what makes you believe a clamp-on system wouldn't work?

Excellent job on the work you've done.

 

Giro 20

I built the Giro 20 as a winter bike to replace my USS Vision.

As regards your questions;

A.) " Were you not 100% happy with the results of the Giro 700 conversion?", no I wasn't. First, let me say that the steering works perfectly, it surprised me and surpassed my expectations. The connection from my hand to handlebar to tie-rod to fork is solid and provides precise control.

So what didn't I like, in no order of importance?
1.) Appearance, the skinny 10mm bolt looked wimpy.
2.) I had to buy a bracket and handlebar from Optima to connect
to the bolt. That process is expensive, time-consuming, unreliable
and in general frustrating. I wanted to build the Giro 20 with only
more readily obtained American parts.
3.) I had problems with the connection of Optima's bracket to the
bolt. The bolt would bend slightly, (almost imperceptibly), putting
lateral tension on the bearings, causing the bearing to
wear-out, causing slop at that point. It never influenced the
steering and was only noticeable when wiggling the handlebar at
rest. In my mind improvement was needed on future conversions.

B.) " a clamp-on system was mentioned and you said you thought about it
but didn't think it would be strong enough. My question is, why?"

Okay, first let me say that whatever method is used to create the
USS, it has to be bomb-proof, If it fails and your front wheel flops,
you could be launched to the detriment of your health. So, I have
to have 100% confidence in the conversion.

One problem with an USS conversion is that the handlebars act
as a lever. It is True that the Bacchetta seats are held in place by
a clamp. (The Carbon Aero seat is actually bolted on with some
pretty wimpy bolts.) Yet, you don't get the lever action because of
the seat stays. Without the seat stays both seating systems would
fail immediately because of the backwards lever action. That in my
mind is why a handlebar is not just sitting there.

So, can a bolt on system be created. Well probably, as anything
can be done. The obvious way to attach to a Bacchetta
would be with their seat clamps, yet one would not be strong enough
to my way of thinking. I would have to use two, spread out, I would
than have to bolt on a stout, mounting plate between the two clamps.
I would than have to attach, either a 10mm bolt or a steerer tube to
that mounting plate, so that I could attach a handlebar.

So why didn't I go that route?

1.) It wouldn't be as strong as drilling through the frame because,
going though a thick frame as opposed to a much skinnier,
"stout, mounting plate," spreads the stress.
2.) The design would be more complicated, I'm not 100% sure it
would work. It could be easy to not consider everything. There
would be more potential failure points.
3.) It would be more costly.
4.) The appearance would be questionable. (Ok, maybe
appearance isn't the most important consideration, but ....)

So for me, drilling a hole through a frame is pretty easy. The local welders charged me around $50.00 for each weld. The welded, tubes were under $20.00. I spray painted the 700 Giro weld, with a $3.00 can of spray paint. The Giro 20 cost me $180.00 for the color of my choice to do the whole frame. (I have seen powder coating done for less when using a more generic color, closer to $100.00.)

So, I guess that doing a clamp-on system could work, I just didn't want to deal with it or take the chance that something might fail. I ride my bikes hard, all year on some pretty marginal roads here in Michigan. (All our roads are marginal.) I rode my Giro 700 through Ohio last year and was impressed by the roads south of Toledo.

Anyway, give me a holler next year if you would like to go for a ride and compare bikes.

 

bentman1953, Would you provide some photos of the bottom of the headtube/handlebar mounting areas of both bikes. Do you still own the Vision, what model is it and do you have any Vision parts? THANKS!
Irv

 

700 conversion pictures

I still have my Vision, although my son is claiming it. The only parts that I have are a seat, (I swapped it for a carbon hardshell.), and the above seat steering parts.

I've attached a few pics of the 700 conversion that you requested.

 

Giro 20 pics

Here is a pic of the Giro 20 from underneath and one taken on a ride.

 

Like the way you do things

GREAT job - I share your view that bomb-proof is the only way to mod.

Few questions:

1. Did you purchase steer tube lever clamps or have fabricated ? If purchased - please advise source / part # ?
   
2. On both of your mods, the new head-tube and mechs seem perilously close to the idler/chain. Lotsa stuff crowded into a small space. Are you having any wear / snagging issues in use ?
   
3. I've got a standing request for a USS Haiku. The linkage offsets due to the "Z" frame have me stymied. Got any ideas ?

Much obliged for any info you might care to share.

Happy Trails.

 

Steer tube clamps.

I went to a machine shop that had a CNC machine to fabricate the steer-tube clamps. I took the fork and the Bacchetta steer tube to the shop for a precise fit. (They are slightly different in diameter.) I have been charged anywhere from $40.00 to $80.00 per clamp, depending on how close my request is to any clamps they have a program file for, already.

I haven't had any issues with mounting my equipment near the idler. In fact I intentionally want my handlebars near the idler as the chain location is fixed by the idler. (I was concerned if I went too far one way or the other that I might run into chain-slap where the chain is not fixed by the idler.)

Although I'm not familiar with the Haiku, I did look at one online. It looked similiar to a Performer recumbent. Performer does have an USS system on some of their recumbents. You might be able to get some ideas from looking at their models.

Good luck.

 

$ 40 - $ 80 per clamp ?
**** Joe - you must have retired better than I did.

The last clamp that cost me that much went around my aorta during open heart surgery

Thanks for the feedback - gonna have to find a less spendy solution.

Happy Trails .... and ... Happy New Year !

 

why different steering

Joe,
I was just curious why you used two different methods. It seems to me that adding a second gusset behind the steer tube on the 700 should work just as well as the 20/26. Thoughts??
Jim

 

Different methods.

I discussed this earlier but let me expound.

First, I did not add a second gusset as I didn't think that it was necessary. The tube through the frame is rock-solid. I did however have a problem with the stainless steel bolt bending slightly, which caused lateral stress on the bearings, causing them to fail after a year. (5000 miles.)

Now, stainless steel bolts are not as hard as other bolts, so the easy fix would be just to get a stronger non-stainless steel bolt. I choose to stay with the stainless steel bolt because I have a controlled fatigue point. In other words, if the system is going to fail, it will be at the easily replaced bolt. Not the frame or the handlebar. The bolt and the bearing together are under $5.00.

I must point out though, that even if the bearing and bolt fail, they do NOT affect the steering because the purpose of the bolt and bearing is just to hang the handlebars. I would only notice it at rest.


So why change?

1.) The biggest reason I went a different direction is because I wanted to use easily obtainable american parts. My handlebar linkage-block on the 700 was purchased from Optima. It was expensive and a pain to acquire. (Took forever and the shipping cost was brutal. The total was north of $230.00.)

Also, if you use their linkage-block, you have to use their handlebar, or make one yourself. On the Giro 20, I'm using the Bacchetta stem, handlebar and steer-tube that came with their frame kit.

2.) My second reason was, as explained earlier, the bolt bending. When my bike is at rest and the bearing is worn-out, I can feel sloppiness in the handlebars when I rock them sideways. It does NOT affect the handling but it bugged my sense of perfection.

3.) My third reason was aesthetics. The bolt system just looks wimpy, lol.


So in summation, I added the single gussets on both bikes as insurance against stress on the system. Without testing to fatigue, I have no idea how much stress the tube on the 700 can handle or the headtube on the Giro 20. Would two gussets be better? Sure, but so far I haven't felt that a second one would be necessary.

 

I was actually more curious as to why even use a bolt through. The giro now and the original vision have the head tube in the main frame. I did think it a bit odd not to do the same for both frames. I am always interested in building and seeing extremely nice work. Congratulations on such beautiful work. I'm glad you posted them and now have a few more ideas to kick around.